We’ve got a bonus episode for you today, which is audio from a debate between Alex Vitale — a recent guest on this show, sociologist and author of The End of Policing — and Heather Mac Donald, one of the leading intellectual champions of urban neoconservativism, over-policing, and mass incarceration at the Manhattan Institute. In a short intro, Dan explains why he’s rooting for one of these two individuals and why that person decisively wins. Thanks to our sponsors at Verso Books. We work really hard and don’t paywall a thing: support this podcast with $ at Patreon.com/TheDig