Our conversation with contemplative author Martin Laird concludes with this episode.

To hear part one, click here.
To hear part two, click here.

"In a spiritual path there are no 'outcomes assessments'." — Martin Laird
After recording an interview with just Carl and Kevin, Fr. Martin graciously agreed to an additional recording session with all three of us. Today's episode features that second conversation, including Cassidy. Fr. Martin deepens and clarifies some of his thoughts on issues already discussed, including discerning the distinctions between secular mindfulness practices and Christian contemplative practices.
"Simply being aware of thoughts as they go by — yes, that's fine. But who is doing the 'aware-ing'?" — Martin Laird
Some of the resources and authors we mention in this conversation with Martin Laird:



Martin Laird, Into the Silent Land: A Guide to the Christian Practice of Contemplation,
Martin Laird, A Sunlit Absence: Silence, Awareness and Contemplation
Martin Laird, An Ocean of Light: Contemplation, Transformation and Liberation.
Martin Laird, Gregory of Nyssa and the Grasp of Faith
R. S. Thomas, Collected Later Poems, 1988-2000

"This whole business of silence is B.S.-proof. It's not a contemplative mascara... The attraction to things spiritual, the attaction to silence, to contemplative practices or disciplines, can actually be a defense against what contemplation will make you face." — Martin Laird
Episode 57: Silent Land, Luminous Ocean: A Conversation with Martin Laird (Part Three)
Hosted by: Kevin Johnson
With: Carl McColman, Cassidy Hall
Guest: Fr. Martin Laird, OSA
Date Recorded: February 25, 2019
"A self 'unselfed' of self is free, is fully created, and becomes a vehicle of compassion because it has overcome the sense of a separate self." — Martin Laird